Dear AP students:
First subject for discussion...The previous entry asks you to analyze the significance of New York City, but I also want you to discuss the significance of the West. In the last chapter, Nick Carraway says "I see now this had been a story of the West, after all--Tom and Gatsby, Daisy and Jordan and I, were all Westerners, and perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly un-adaptable to Eastern life." How does the West compare to the eastern part of the United States? What values does the West have that are not shared by the East, especially New York City?
Second subject for discussion...America at the beginning of the 1920's was considered a very unsophisticated place. Most people believed in the Puritan work ethic--an ethical concept linked to a religious group (the Puritans of the 17th century). The Puritan work ethic can be defined as the necessity of emphasizing hard work as a component of a person's calling and worldly success and a sign of personal religous salvation. Being frugal--not ostentatious about money, is also part of the Puritan work ethic. Related to the Puritan work ethic, is the idea that hard work will make you wealthy, and also build character/make you a nice person. This also meant that you didn't necessarily have to enjoy your job--you just had to work hard at it.
But the Lost Generation, that age group of men who had gone to Europe/World War and seen the horror of war and the beauty of European cities such as Paris came back questioning the value of the Puritan ethic. They appreciated the sophistication/culture of Paris. In fact, many of them moved to Paris as a way to rebel against quaint, strict American values. They didn't feel the need to work at a job they hated, and they didnt care about religious salvation. In the Great Gatsby, the characters are not very religious. There is only a mention of God, church, or religion in a couple pages, mostly in the last chapter. And of course, Jay Gatsby puts a spin on the concept of the Puritan ethic by working hard, but illegally, to make money and doesn't really becoming a better person/or relgiously saved because of it.
Regarding religion, what serves as a symbol for God in this novel? The symbol I have in mind is a very ironic object to be linked to religion, but it also serves as a symbol of the changing times in American business/culture. Any ideas?
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12 comments:
To begin, the quote that explains that Daisy, Tom, Jordan and Nick do not belong in the East because they are Westerners is just to explain, related to the American Dream is not for everyone. What the author is trying to say is that some are destined for greatness and some are not, meaning some are destined to be rich and some have to work very hard to be great.
Continuing, the Puritan lifestyle of working hard also brings the greed for money and the false reality of happiness. The lifestyle in this book does not make you necesarily happy, it can be drawn to the idea of a political machine, superiors to you tag you as worthy to work or not, basing image not in moral standards but in work standards.
The symbol of God, in my opinion, symbolizes Nick, since he is the only one who views everyone and really knows what happenening to everyone.
The lost generation is looking for wealth that does not have to be earned by working hard at a job that you may or may not like. The previous generation was that of the puritan society, originally seeking religious freedom, puritans come with the belief that if you work hard your work will be rewarded. Seeing as the present generation in the novel seems to not believe in god – frank - their social class is a substitute. Think about it, the men throw gaudy parties in their elaborate mansions, the women whether cheated or not remain loyal to their wealth husbands, our cheating main characters are still looked highly upon and their mistresses are considered mere flings. Men of the era work not for the satisfaction of being rewarded but for the life style that being rich entails.
Erika King
The difference between the East and West in the United States is that people in the West are more liberal to do what they want, especially with jobs. They sort of live in the moment rather than plan for the future. Tom, Daisy,Jordan and Nick are good examples, they rarely mention working and if they do it's done secretly like Mr. Gatsby and his mysterious phone calls.
I believe the symbol for God in this book was the narrator himself, Nick Calloway. Nick knows every little detail about each of the characters and their history. Throughout the whole book, he is omniscent like a God. Rarely does he mention anything about himself. He judges Gatsby when he dies and even though he might have disliked him he found companionship and sympathy for him when no one else did.
first of all, using "Destiny" as a key term in an argument is not a great idea. You make your own life, it is not determined by a non-tangible all mighty. One can achieve their idea of american dream anywhere in the states, it is not determined by region. If you come from a rich family it doesn't mean you'll stay rich.. however you can start in a poor family and then work your way up ... or stay poor... in the end it is one that decides.
( perfect example is Mc Hammer )
Puritan work ethic... another pseudoism. If you work hard you'll be happy, rich, and saved. Back in the 1920's they also had the idea of Eugenics... ( pff they were right too, right ) So it was just another trend. People work for necessity, not because they want to.
a symbol for god in this book are the Eyes of Doctor Eckleburg. when wilson was talking about god and all that mumbo jumbo he looks at the eyes. Also, the eyes are located in the ash valley where the poor live. could it be that God wants his sons to work hard ( puritan work ethic ) so they get saved??... so he looks at them.
From my experience, no matter the distance no place is the same as another. There are always innate and developed differences, as is exemplified by West and East Egg and the West and East in our own country. The East coast is innately "older" than the West, as in being a part of America and the American Dream. There are older familial lineages that can be traced throughout society gatherings and universities there. Whereas the West coast is fairly "newer" to the "traditional American" values of an Ivy League education. The family lineages in the West can more lengthily be traced to other countries than in the U.S. Values, therefore, are dissimilar in that the cultures that impact the regions are different. While the East is dominated by both Western and Eastern Europeans, the West is dominated by Latin Americans and Asian/Pacific Islanders. Meaning, while individual success is important for one region, family name and loyalty is more important in the other.
As for Puritan work ethic, I can see the reasoning behind it, but know that it most likely can never be resembled again. Given that society has been exposed to the glorification of flaunting achievement, being content with oneself and status and livelihood is increasingly difficult.
In terms of religion, I cannot say that I believe any of the characters themselves represent a Christ figure. Maybe in terms of them believing themselves to be so, I can understand the argument of it being Nick himself. He's judgmental and overly aware of everyone mentioned in the book. He's watching everyone to the minutest of details, leaving people exposed to him much like they are to God.
In terms of an object representing God, as well as the changing times, I will have to make another entry after mulling it over...haha.
As I said in a previous post, I believe that west symbolizes the western portion of this country during the time period. The west was still a place where people had to come and make a name for them self. The west was a place where reality was harsh and sometimes cruel. The characters often wanted to go to New York because it was a place they could escape to, where anything is possible, and it is when they return to the west that they realize the consequences of their actions.
I think Fitzgerald's comments on society are very clear. He believed that money/capitalism were now the way of the world for most people. He portrayed the negative effects that money can bring. It must have been frustrating for the soldiers who had fought so hard for this country, to return to a place that seemed almost unworthy of all of their effort, and I Fitzgeral capture that perfectly in this novel.
As for the symbol of God, I believe that it must be some sort of commercial thing. the marxism perspective is so prominent that I feel the two must be related, however I am not quite sure how yet.
1) I feel that when California and New York are compared (the West Coast vs. the East Coast) their is a quantity of differences and similarities. When people think of California they visualize sunny days, resting in the sun, playing ball on the beach, basically a nice vacation. On the other hand, it's not the same for New York. People imagine big city lights on the Statue of Liberty, going on fairy rides, and also being eloped this buisness environment whereas California's is calm and sane.
The qualities that they West have that the East does not is how to behave and keep oneself controlled instead of being hazardous.
2) It is depended on what region of the United States that had to be this unsophisticated, for example, New York, Delaware, New Jersey, Massachusetts, mainly East Coast states, were unsophisticated, but Central and West Coast were on the verge of being unsophisticated yet still had class.
3) I can't really say what I believe in this novel is religious. I am not too big on the subject nor know so much about it.
The west is where Americans first flocked to once the nations started growing. However, the characters in the novel choose to move East. They are kind of going backwards in terms of the American Dream. Most people start in New York or somewhere else, and then move West to enjoy higher living. The West is more associated with leisure and good times, while the East coast fosters homes for blue collar workers. This makes it sort of ironic since the characters in the novel aren't blue or white collar; they are born into a rich life, excluding Gatsby who works his way up (in a negative way).
Like others have already said, individuals didn't care about salvation. So many people were taken advantage of just to get to that rich lifestyle. Why work in a factory when you can get that money without much physical effort? Why work for money when you can get it in the snap of a finger? Who cares about others, looking good and having fun is all that matters, right? War had such a dramatic effect on society, it caused people not to care any more about hard work. They put in all their hard work in the war and they ended up traumatized.
As for the symbol of God, it could either be Nick or the billboard of Dr. Eckleburg like someone previously said. Nick isn't the center of attention in the story, but he knows about everything that happened. He can be an omnipotent type of character in a sense, he just doesn't know what the characters feel (but he does know what everyone's done). The eyes of Dr. Eckleburg in the valley of ashes are very symbolic. Even in the darkest of places, the billboard watches over everyone, and probably even witnessed the death of Myrtle. The billboard was pretty new back then as well, which foreshadows the mass media in the coming future of America.
The west is mild in climate and mountainous while the east coast have severe winters and wild tornadoes. Also, the historical backgroud is different because the East was founded first by the immigrants and the West was slowly conquered by the manifest destiny idea.
The Puritan idea of working hard and gradually reaching the pinnacle of success is greatly discussed in this novel and portrayed the exact opposite of the Puritan idea. The symbol that comes to mind is the parties that Gatsby throws for his close companions but ends up with a mob of people that Gatsby have little to no connection at all. There are moments of adulterous behavior between married couples and illegal access to the wealth that now Gatsby garners.
James Lee
I agree with Dion that the west is more liberal and way more spontaneous. Jay, Tom, Daisy and Ms. Myrtle seem to not care or think of what their actions can do to their life or partner, they seem to all be westerners in that aspect.
First of I believe that the West refers to what the west symbolized during Manifest Destiny. The west generally symbolized adventure opportunity. However during the 1920s many people say the east as a place for possible opportunity. They also say it as a place for the rich or where the wealthy lived because of entrepreneurs like John D Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford. However when they reached the east they learned that unlike the west many people do not make money in legitimate ways and many times wealth came at a price. Figuratively people had to sell their soul to make their money the had to be able to take advantage of mistake and take advantage of people. So the people from the West like the character in the novel where not prepare or used to this.
Secondly this novel shows the change brought by the Lost Generation. The way they show this is that every person in this novel does not work hard but lives lavishly. Gatsby works illegally selling alcohol, the Buchanan's do not work they simply inherit money, Jordan Baker plays sports to make money and Nick is a broker but never goes to work during the novel. All of these people live lavishly but do not work like Puritan work ethic says. The people that actually work hard die. Gatsby works hard but in an illegal way and ends up dead, Mr. Wilson also works hard and commits suicide.
Finally The character that symbolizes God is Nick Harraway. The reason is that he is omniscient and knows information about all the characters. He does not give people advice he allows things to play out and judges people based on their actions.
East and west seem to be a reason of conflict. I remember hearing alot of people talk crap about California, but here it seems like the east is considered inferior. It also seems to be a point of conflict in this book because of the division of wealth. In the past it was also a source of religious conflict. It's an easy way to show conflict I think.
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