Dear AP students:
Is there anything more childlike and innocent than a carousel? It's for little kids. Even Phoebe makes the comment that she's "too big" for it. Yet, she is talked into getting on and riding it, and this give Holden great joy.
This final scene at the zoo where Phoebe rides the carousel speaks much about Holden's concern for his loss of childhood and the accompanying loss of innocence.
The author succeeds in emphasizing the innocent nature of the carousel by preceding it's introduction into the story by also showing Holden's disgust for the F-word, which seems to be painted everywhere he goes. Isn't that a perverse societal sign of growing up, or a loss of innocence, when a kid starts using the F-word? It's very hard to avoid in our society--so many movies use the F-word these days. It never appeared in movies before the late 60's. Now you can hear it all the time on TV, at least on pay per view stations like HBO. Perhaps Salinger in 1951 was foreshadowing how our society would turn out...more vulgar...more accepting of bad words. Maybe that's what he was saying by making D.B. a Hollywood script writer...a phoney who would eventually be using the F-word in movie script by the late 60's.
I find it interesting that on a carousel the kids aim to get a gold ring. They are on a quest, like the hero on a hero's journey. And they sometimes fall off their horses while reaching for the gold ring...just as we sometimes fall or fail in life as we strive for something. What doe you think about Holden's$ response to the idea of kids falling off the horses? Didn't he want to be the catcher in the rye?
Different subject...can somebody volunteer to explain the significance of the mummy scene (with Holden and the two brothers inside the museum)...right before the carousel scene? I thought it was such an interesting scene.
Keep reading. If anyone is looking for another book to read for the break I suggest A Separate Peace, which is a different kind of story about preppies. If you haven't already read it To Kill a Mockingbird would also be good...its the 50th anniversary of the publication of that famous book.
Don't forget to read the two articles I gave you before we left. I will ask you to relate and apply those two articles to Catcher in the Rye (in an essay) when we get back.
23 comments:
I thought that the Horses on the carousel might represent innocence, and that falling off of the horse leads to a new chapter in your life: a time when you are lost, and in much pain. I guess what Holden is trying to say is that it would be great if people were there to protect children from loosing their innocence, which is what he would like to do.
I also felt the mummy scene was interesting. I believe that the two boys Holden was with in the museum reminded him of him and Allie when they were younger. The older child did seem protective toward the younger one, which I think reflects Holden's feelings of Allie. He wanted to protect him as much as possible.
Graeme Scott
I think that Holden's idea about kids falling of the Horse is children moving from their safety net into adulthood. All people experience the transition of being a child into a teen and finally into an adult. Life as a child was more care free simple life and I believe that Holden treasured that moment and that is why he felt disgusted by the use of curse words that society has slowly learned to accept.
I agree with Graeme Scott's view about the scene with the mummy. Holden always referred to his younger brother throughout the novel and his remarks about Allie showed how much he cared for him just like how the older brother in the mummy scene cared for his younger brother.
Holden perceives the the golden ring as a symbol of transition between childhood and adulthood . Like the children who fall off the cliffs in Holden's idealized world, the children who may fall off the carousel are losing their innocence. In the novel, Holden realizes this when his sister Phoebe attempts to reach for the golden ring, emphasizing to him that the time for her transition is soon to come.
The mummy scene is significant, because the mummies aren't tainted with phoniness or change throughout the course of time. Holden mentioned that to the children that they are preserved, specifically hinting at the notion that their innocence is still intact. Although Holden has a distinct obsession with death, he admires the mummies, because they don't change or disappear like humans do.
For the mummy scene, i understand that it actually begins when Holden gives the note to his sister at her school. The "Fuck You" (excuse the language please) written on the wall is what starts the transition of the loss of youth's innocence. It's written at least twice in the school, and again in the mummy exhibit in the museum. The loss of a child's innocence is inevitable. Holden is trying to save children's innocence and prolong the pureness of child, in the school, in the museum, and with Pheobe on the carousel. Holden knows that his innocence is gone, and in losing his, he more so values the innocence of the children around him. when children on the carousel try to reach the golden ring, he understands their quest and their pureness in playing; in seeing this, he reminisces in his own experiences.
-Erika King
I think the mummy scene was strong symbolism for Holden's life. The older brother wanted to protect his younger sibling, just as Holden wished he could have protected Allie, and as he hoped to protect Phoebe. I also think the mummy was meant to symbolise death, allies death. The brothers fear represents Holden's own fear of death and the unknown. He is afraid of what may have happened to his younger brother and wishes he could be united with his brother so that he could comfort and protect Allie, but also feels it is his duty to protect Phoebe.
Well thinking back to when I was a child I remember that the carousel was THE RIDE to ride. The horses on the carousel along with the other animals that can now commonly be a ride of confidence that a child may enjoy for a small fee. These carousels can be found at most attractions, such as Seaport village, Disneyland, and The San Diego County Fair. The horses seem to take the children to their childhood dream, like a hero on a stallion fighting for the good of everyone. That good in a child's case would be their innocence that continues to live no matter what age they are.
The mummy scene in the book was quite touching. It made me reminisce back to when my grandfather would take me out to different places and he would take care of me and watch out for me while we were out. I also agree with Graeme in which he compares this scene to Allie and Holden.
Jillian Buenviaje
I do think the horses on the carousel can signify innocence or even childhood and that when the ride is over signifies the growing up of a person or a time of sadness.
In the museum, the irony that the big brotehr protects the smaller one reflects Holden alineation towards Allie and even Phoebe.
Edgar Ramirez
The scene with the children reaching for the golden ring and falling off their horses in the process signifies children learning by themselves how to handle hardships and falling off their safety zone. Holden says "If they want to grab for the gold ring, you have to let them do it, and not say anything." This shows Holden's understanding of children's independence and their duty to grow by themselves after falling off or experiencing a loss. It signifies the step in childhood when you first experience dealing with failing in order to grow after.
The brothers and the mummies show a strong brotherhood that is willing to protect from the sight of death. The brothers always wanted to stay close and not loose one another just as Holden hoped for with his siblings. I found it interesting when Holden was talking about the preserving technique of the mummies. In that he found comfort maybe at the idea his brother is still the same as the mummies were. Holden is starting to develop a sort of acceptance to death and growing up in these two scenes.
Holden said he knew that if the children wanted to reach for the gold ring, they were likely to fall off their horses while attempting the challenge, but he also said, "you have to let them do it...If they fall off, they fall off." He did mention earlier in the book that he wanted to be the catcher in the rye and keep children from falling over, which conflicts with the idea about the carousel. This might be because Holden himself is confused and often battles himself. He accepts that it is inevitable for children to "fall off the horse," but he does not want children to fall down and stay down, like they would in the rye. Holden's opposing reactions to simmilar events can be confusing, but it just goes with his character. I think Holden's main concern is for children to enjoy childhood for as long as it is in their grasp.
In the museum, Holden was amazed at the way the mummies were able to stay unchanging for so long. After all, throughout the story he expresses his dislike for they way people change in their life and become "phony."
Jocelyn Luna
There is the saying, "Once you fall down, get right back up again," and I feel that this is similar to what J.D Salinger wanted to imply in "the Catcher in the Rye." When Holden talks to Phoebe about being the person who stands at the edge of the cliff and catches little kids from falling, I felt that Holden had a desire to help those who are losing their youth and stop them from changing and the hardships that go with it. However, during the carousel scene, his whole attitude changes. As he watches the little kids try to get the golden ring he understands that everyone must face hardships in order to reach their goals. Even thought the kids ,including Phoebe, may fall, they can get right back up and try again.
The mummy scene, I felt was a sign of innocence and youth and a reminder to the bond that Holden had with Allie.
To me the Horses on the carousel represented his past in a way , that even though the ride comes to an end it just leads to a new begining . The way Holden spoke of the museum made it seem like that museum reprsented his childhood how everyday was the same activties no matter where you went and the only thing that changed was yourself , just like age . The image of children falling off the carousel shows them rushing into adult hood , when you fall off most of the time you get hurt , but its all a lesson of life .
-Sasha Sanchez
Now up to the scene in the musuem, it would seem as if Salinger's protagonist was simply another teenager speaking to the world about his "oulandish" problems in life. However, during such setting, what actually was a teenager? To me, it seemed as if this gap between childhood and adulthood was a complete blur, as Holden represented a sort of antagonist towards his surroundings. In addition, his susceptibility of being judgmental towards almost everything and everybody is most noticabely encountered in the musuem scene, as Holden is again left with darkness, emptiness, and the words "f***" you" on the wall. Such vulgar encountered in this scene reiterates Holden's penchant to pass judgments to such an extreme that it often becomes satire. Holden beleives that people are so crass that someone would probably write “f*** you” on his own tombstone.
In saying that the kids on the carousel aim to get the gold ring Holden understood that in life we strive for certain things. In saying that you have to let kids do want they want Holden understands that he can not get want he wants. He did say he wanted to be the catcher in the rye but he saw it was not possible. He realized everyone else even childen were like himself. In the end they would do want they want and you had to give that to people. I feel this scene made him understand himself better and will affect his future. Holden comes to understand life should be enjoyable for people.
The mummy scene could had a refernce to how Holden viewed Allie. Just as the older boy protected the younger one Holden still felt he needed to protect Allie. Not in a physical sence but rather in a mental state of keeping him close to him.
- Mason Moyers
I think that falling off the horse represents a transition in life. A time in life when in pain and without guidance. When everything is not going the way you would like. Holden is saying that you just have to let people go for what they want. If they fall, it would be great to have someone watching, so that they could have help getting back on the horse, or life.
The kids falling off the horses is like a mini version of his idea of kids falling off the cliffs. He sees the world and in his eyes sees the corruption evrywhere: violence, thievery, phonies,profanity. Even though i would get annoyed when he kept complaining about these topics, his perspective is not an unreal one since in reality thats how the world is, thats how people are in society even at Olympian, and therefore is an everyday thing. He wishes he could "catch" kids before they fall victim of the corruption and end up like him or worse. Throughout the book he's suffered from alienation and even though he was always critical of eveyone I'm sure inside he wish he could just belong but in the end he can't.
Juan Vazcones
When the scene of the carosuel arrived, and Holden sat on the bench as Phoebe rode on the carosuel, it showed the emontional relationship between them two. It represent a different more caring side of Holden, who continued to watch even in the rain.
Holden translates this moment of how he is their for his sister back to the death of his young brother. It seems that he is still carrying some I'll feelings on the incident.
The moment when Holden stumbles across the numerous amount of tagged F-words, is significant in that it alerts Holden of the loss of innonce in children and possibly his sister.
-Yusuf Abdi
The gold ring of the carousel serves as metaphor for growing up. When Holden says that you just have to let the kid reach, even if they might get hurt doing so, he may be admitting that growing up is inevitable. You can't really prevent it, so you should accept it as it is. Holden's idea of falling off horses also relates to Holden wanting to catch children before they fall out of innocence into knowledge of the adult world.
-Allison Estaris
Yes I thought it was pretty intersting the fact that Holden desire to get in the carouse. For me i thought it show the part where he doesnt want to let go of his chilhood yet, he misses being a child, he misses being stress free having no idea wants going around but also how he protect pheobe because it seems like he trying to show a transition between child and adulthood and he want to protect his sister form losing her innocence just yet.
Cindy Sandoval
LATE ENTRY
I found it interesting how Phoebe went back looking for the same horse on the carousel. It goes to show that people have patterns in heir life, and even though certain things, or chapters in our lives, may come to an end, people still tend to stick with what they know.
Holden does not change very much during the story, however, he does change his opinion on "saving the children." In the beginning, he talks about how he wants to catch all of the kids in the Rye, but while watching Phoebe go around on the carousel, Holden's opinion changes. He comes to the conclusion that you can't always be there catching the kids, and sometimes they have to learn how to fall and get up on their own. It is possible that he decided this after realizing that he had been through so much, and had hopefully become a stronger person because of it.
He may have also finally come to the realization that all children must grow up, and they benefit from it more if they do it on their own.
-Chloe Slovinsky
PS. I did read a Separate Piece my freshmen year. I rarely dislike books, but this one was an exception. Sorry Mr. Rodriguez!
I think that the hourses on the carousel also represents innocence and when kids fall off trying to reach for a gold ring symbolizes them going through the phase to go to adult hood and that sometimes you cant always have what you want the easy way that sometimes you fail you just have to keep trying and trying.
-KNMM
1)in my opinion I do think the carousel may symbolize youth and age, by the end of the ride it shows the growing up of a person and hits maturity and responsibilities. in the museum irony is being showed by how the older brother protects the younger one this may also be connected towards Holden feeling onto Allie.
Imran S. Hoque
LATE ENTRY: I agree that the carousel does represent youth and innocence. I think that when the kids would fall off the horses they enter more into a life of growing up and loss of innocence. A life full of responsibilities.The use of the F word I think is somewhat a loss of innocence. The difference of kids using it back then and kids using it today is that today it is so frequent that kids seem to lose their innocence even younger than imagined and I think that bothers a lot of people, people like Holden. The significance of the museum is that Holden wants life to be like it: frozen and still; never changing. Although the museum remains the same, Holden changes every time he visits it and he does not like that.
- Joanna Nicole Hicks, Period 1
For Holden,the red hunting hat was the sign of innocence for, letting it go was hard and when he did, he opened a new beginning to his life, knowing that people will be here for him when he needs help.
The ugliness was when Holden found the "Fuck you" sign and was really troubled by it because he didn't want his little sister,Phoebe, to see it and be influenced by the bad society. Holden wanted her to remain the way she is, innocent and kind unlike the people that are around her that would ruin her life because of bad influence.
Tiny Rose Medallo
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